i mean, this is where the campaign is right now, isn't it? >> well, it's tough to get a sense of where they are, you know, because there hasn't been really good reporting about what they were thinking going into that debate. i think e.j.'s right. on one hand they didn't want to come off as sort of the aggressor. so the trajectory is in obama's favor. keep in mind if you look at the map, he has to win ohio, wisconsin and iowa and keep the states he won -- and keep the kerry map. he'll end up the next president of the united states. they have a very easy path to victory. they didn't want to upset the trajectory. i think if you have a few more moments like this you wonder if that could be complicated. the other thing, 60-million-plus people watched the debate last night. the most people who tuned into the debate since 1992. i don't think the obama campaign should feel comfortable taking that for granted. >> well, exactly. i think, you know, lies are believed by some people. i mean, how effective is a good salesman even if he's lying left and rig